Great read for those who try to "time" the market

Search

Give BB 2.5k he makes it 20k within 3 months 99out
Joined
Dec 20, 2001
Messages
4,577
Tokens
Taken from the Motley Fool's Newsletter released on Friday:


September 2007 Issue: Page 10 of 10
Fool's Tools: Don't Try to Time the Market

By Rich Greifner
Many Stock Advisor subscribers likely are familiar with the old Wall Street adage, "sell in May and go away," a strategy that attempts to exploit the historical trend of poor market performance during the summer months. There's just one tiny problem with that rule, as well as nearly every other market timing strategy: It doesn't work.
According to the Stock Trader's Almanac, a strategy of investing in Dow Jones stocks during the "good six months" of the year (November through April) and switching to fixed income securities during the "worst six months" (May through October) would have grown an initial $10,000 investment into $544,323 over a 56-year period. Meanwhile, the opposite strategy -- which I will dub, "sell in November and hope to remember" -- would have lost money over the same period. So why don't we endorse this approach?
Next Stop ... Bangladesh!

"Sell in May" is hardly the only market-timing strategy that can demonstrate above-average returns by manipulating historical data. There's the Super Bowl predictor, the Presidential Election cycle, and my personal favorite, the Hemline Indicator, which ties stock market performance to the length of women's skirts (naturally, shorter is better).
ServeImage.aspx
But before you break out your ruler at the local Ann Taylor, remember that these market-timing theories rely more on correlation than causation. Armed with historical data and a powerful computer, an enterprising investor can establish a link between stock market performance and just about any real world event. Need more proof? Cal Tech professor David Leinweber found that, historically, the single best predictor of the S&P 500's performance was butter production in Bangladesh. Are you willing to bet your financial future on the cows in Chittagong?
So You're Saying There's a Chance?

While the recent stock market volatility illustrates the enormous potential gains from market timing, most experts agree that jumping in and out of stocks is a recipe for disaster. In 1975, Nobel laureate William Sharpe concluded that "attempts to time the market are not likely to produce incremental returns of more than 4 percent per year over the long run." Sharpe concluded that unless a market-timer could accurately forecast market conditions 70% of the time, he was better off with a simple buy-and-hold strategy.
The adverse effects of market timing can even negate the returns of a master investor. Although the Fidelity Magellan Fund raked in astounding 29% annual returns during manager Peter Lynch's 13-year tenure, individual investors didn't fare as well. Lynch believes that most Magellan investors actually lost money over that period by jumping in when the fund was hot and pulling out when things cooled off. Individual investors tend to buy high and sell low -- not an optimal investing strategy.
Statistically speaking, investors' returns suffer when they stash assets on the sidelines. Consider that 95% of the market's gains between 1963 and 1994 occurred during 1.2% of the trading days. An investor who was out of the market for the best 50 days of that 31-year period would have realized roughly the same annual returns as someone who put all his money in risk-free Treasury bills. Since the market tends to go up two out of every three days, market observers have a better chance of missing out on a big gain than avoiding a large loss.
About That Big Gain ...

The best way to beat the market is to buy great companies trading at fair prices, and to hold those companies over the long haul. While it can be unnerving to see one of your holdings shed a significant chunk of its value in the amount of time it takes Jim Cramer to throw a televised temper tantrum, it's important to maintain a long-term perspective. When your stocks are down, reassess your original investment thesis. If you still believe a company will be a long-term winner, consider adding to your position.
We can't predict what a stock will do during any given day, week, month, or year. As you can see from the chart to the left, over the past five years, our Stock Advisor recommendations have risen and fallen regularly, sometimes violently. While the zigs and zags are always exciting, we prefer to concentrate on our portfolio's long-term trend of moving upward, and to the right.
 

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Sep 21, 2004
Messages
971
Tokens
Sharpe concluded that unless a market-timer could accurately forecast market conditions 70% of the time, he was better off with a simple buy-and-hold strategy.

70%, huh? What a nonsense...
 

New member
Joined
Apr 4, 2007
Messages
520
Tokens
Motley Fool is often good reading, but this article misses the point.

The author scoffs at market timing, but erroniously tries to validate that opinion by comparing the overall market to individual stocks. There is a big difference.

He is correct that if you own good companies and are in for the long haul, you should not be trying to time short-term peaks and valleys.

But he is off the mark if he doesnt think there are good times to be shifting into cash and other times to have more of your portfolio in equities. People that knew this, avoided the 1989 crash, and the more recent meltdown of the 2000 Nasdaq bubble, where the index lost 70+% of its value.

Its as if the media must promote the "buyandhold" theory, at all costs. Even if it is YOUR money. And it always seems that these type of articles circulate when there is turbulence in the market.
 

Give BB 2.5k he makes it 20k within 3 months 99out
Joined
Dec 20, 2001
Messages
4,577
Tokens
From the greatest investor of all time, Warren Buffet. If he doesn't try to time the market, then what makes any one else think they can? If market timing were the way to go, then why isn't the worlds most successful investor a market timer and not a 80 year old dinosaur who believes in the power of buy and hold?




Here is the quote from Warren Buffett from the 2004 BRK annual meeting.




Over the 35 years, American business has delivered terrific results. It should therefore have been easy for investors to earn juicy returns: All they had to do was piggyback Corporate America in a diversified, low-expense way. An index fund that they never touched would have done the job.

Instead many investors have had experiences ranging from mediocre to disastrous. There have been three primary causes: first, high costs, usually because investors traded excessively or spent far too much on investment management; second, portfolio decisions based on tips and fads rather than on thoughtful, quantified evaluation of businesses; and third, a start-and-stop approach to the market marked by untimely entries (after an advance has been long underway and exits (after periods of stagnation or decline). Investors should remember that excitement and expenses are their enemies. And if they insist on trying to time their participation in equities, they should try to be fearful when others are greedy and greedy only when others are fearful.





As for the Crash of 87 lets take a look at what happened to Warren Buffett on that terrible day.




Marketing-timing does not make any sense.

It’s critically important that you understand this point because. It’s vital that when that happens, you pay no attention to the media and instead follow Warren Buffett’s example. On October 19th, 1987, Warren Buffett’s personal portfolio declined—in that one day—by a staggering $342,000,000. HOW MUCH MONEY DID HE LOSE?….

…None. Because he didn’t sell. Market fluctuations don’t cause loss; investors cause loss when they panic and sell.

NPNS NSNL ADAT (No panic = no sale; no sale = no loss. All declines are temporary.)
 

New member
Joined
Apr 4, 2007
Messages
520
Tokens
Well sure, a billionaire like WEB surely doesnt have to time anything! All he does is buy more, when things take a downturn. And if he needs help, he can just have a meeting with government, and work on, say insurance laws in America that may have a positive impact on the re-insurance industry which has helped add to his stack of billions. Can you or I do that?

Buffett, while he has surely done very well in the share markets over the last 4 decades, does not impress me as an economic forecaster, a required skill if you ever hope to time the market accuately.

And though some find this hard to believe, there are many professionals (and probably more than a few private investors as well) who have out-performed Warrens portfolio in % terms in the last 20 years. And some of them made big money in the timeframe you quote when WEBs portfolio took a 342M hit. It wasnt hard to see it coming 20 yrs ago, the market gave obvious clues of selling off before it took the big plunge, but, because he is so large, he cannot really move that kind of cash without impacting the country, so he preaches the buy and hold theory to little folks like you and me, because it benefits him, and the institution that has made him wealthy.

He is right that market timing is not for most people. But to say it cannot be done effectively is hogwash, and displays a lack of understanding core economics.
 

Give BB 2.5k he makes it 20k within 3 months 99out
Joined
Dec 20, 2001
Messages
4,577
Tokens
This is going to sound like a smart ass comment/question but I swear I'm not trying to be an ass. Cookie, you sound like you have it all figured out. I have to ask with your expertise on what the markets are going to do and with your foresite to see crashes and rebounds coming, I have to believe that you have made many millions with your wisdom. Even with a mere 10g's you could have turned that into 8 figures easily over the course of a few years with the power and leverage of options. In fact if you are so smart I have to believe that trading is your full time job and that you have all of your family and close friends along side you raking in the dough.


Could you tell me, within 100 points, what the DOW will be trading at on September 21st 2007, Dec 31st 2007, and Dec 31st 2008 and why it will be near the price targets?
 

New member
Joined
Apr 4, 2007
Messages
520
Tokens
I CAN tell you that in the last 20 years, there has only been four instances where I moved into cash, or mostly into cash. and then of course four times back into the market.

Timing the market does not mean day or swing trading on whims or emotion but recognizes there are times when the market is so overvalued, there is temporarily no more upside, and times when it is so oversold, there is no one left to sell in any quantity.

And before you send me a trophy ,I have only averaged 31.2% per year since 1985, and we DO indeed live off the account. Sharper (ir braver) friends who short the market, and use margin accts., (I dont) have averaged much more than me since 1999.

All I am stating is that you must be cognizant of the drivers and accept that markets pause and dip occasionally and even crash sometimes temporarily, and be ready to act accordingly.

Thats all I can tell you. Regards
 

Triple digit silver kook
Joined
Mar 1, 2005
Messages
13,697
Tokens
Warren Buffet also says dont buy a stock making new lows during a bull market.

I also believe in owning sector leaders.

The whole idea of buying good companies is very elusive.

I believe in finding what sectors are likely to be bull markets taking a position, adding to that position during corrections, and holding them for many years, but I do not believe in buying and holding anything forever.

Bottom line is there are many roads to Rome and people have what road works best for their goals, style, and personality.

Too many people with other jobs or careers think they can buy and sell stocks like people doing it professionally.

Those types of people are best having someone else manage their wealth.
 

Give BB 2.5k he makes it 20k within 3 months 99out
Joined
Dec 20, 2001
Messages
4,577
Tokens
"And before you send me a trophy ,I have only averaged 31.2% per year since 1985, and we DO indeed live off the account."




Over 30% per year average for over 20 years?! Why in the world aren't you a wall street money manager making 7 figures per year? You have the best 20plus year record of any of the best hedgefund, mutual fund managers, or even the best recorded stock pickers ever.


If one were to invest 10k dollars for 20 years with and average return of 30% with no additions it would be worth 1.9 million dollars after 20 years.


By simply adding 100 dollars per month investing with you would have yielded over the 20 years it's worth 2.8 million.


By adding 300 dollars per month now it's worth 4.8 million.




You are a finacial God my friend. You really have found the golden goose.
 

New member
Joined
Apr 4, 2007
Messages
520
Tokens
Thank you, and hope you realize I am wishing you success too.

The only ones I have a problem with are those who claim some kind of moral or intellectual high ground because they have made more money than someone else. And when I knowingly take a minority position against a world icon like Warren Buffett, I am ready to take lots of heat.

And just so you can understand, 300k from running a small business for 14 years put aside. Whatever the account grosses, we live off of. That is roughly 50k net. Big deal, Im still a NObody, but enjoy a nice quiet life here in Squaw Valley Calif., and own a few racehorses for entertainment. Have zero interest in entering the high stress world of managing money for strangers for several personal reasons.

And btw, speaking of market timers, what about ole Bob Brinker? He is an advocate of it as well, and his record is much more impressive than mine. Google his name up for his website if you want. Look at his portfolios. He has done very well in timing the markets over the long haul. He is a good source of info that may be of some help. Take care, and Regards.
 

Give BB 2.5k he makes it 20k within 3 months 99out
Joined
Dec 20, 2001
Messages
4,577
Tokens
One more question for you Cookie,


Right now are you in or out of the stock market because of the recent turmoil?
 

New member
Joined
Apr 4, 2007
Messages
520
Tokens
I am right at 40% IN equitys, and 60 cash, thats why I am kind of bitter, not making much these last few weeks. Waiting to see how the next round of earnings is received by investors.

My main fear is the Fed is going to run out of options with the money supply soon, and if that happens..key word is IF....the market will get ugly. They triggered a mild rally with their cut in the fed funds rate this week, but hard to be real bullish right now. Then again, Im not young and daring any more either.
 

New member
Joined
Apr 4, 2007
Messages
520
Tokens
I am right at 40% IN equitys, and 60 cash, thats why I am kind of bitter, not making much these last few weeks. Waiting to see how the next round of earnings is received by investors.

My main fear is the Fed is going to run out of options with the money supply soon, and if that happens..key word is IF....the market will get ugly. They triggered a mild rally with their cut in the fed funds rate this week, but hard to be real bullish right now. Then again, Im not young and daring any more either.

Meant to say discount rate, not fed funds, sorry
 

Triple digit silver kook
Joined
Mar 1, 2005
Messages
13,697
Tokens
Hitman, have you thought about posting a new tagline?

I think I have read something thats at least worth consideration.

:ughhh:
 

Forum statistics

Threads
1,117,988
Messages
13,550,067
Members
100,552
Latest member
taitdtcpro1
The RX is the sports betting industry's leading information portal for bonuses, picks, and sportsbook reviews. Find the best deals offered by a sportsbook in your state and browse our free picks section.FacebookTwitterInstagramContact Usforum@therx.com